Author Topic: BP: War in Heaven discussion  (Read 550623 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
In addition to the subsystem-sniping capships, the UEF also has some pretty tough fighters, bombers, and frigates to carry them. Shivans already have trouble with GTVA fighters.

You're forgetting the reason UEF fighters perform so well is because they're designed for all these things at the expense of staying power, where the GTVA went the other way to stand off endless waves of Shivan fightercraft. UEF fighter screens would most likely crumble under sustained pressure that the GTVA couldn't afford to apply but the Shivans can.

Indeed. UEF ships have much shorter operational lifespans and fuel endurance. Plus they're not designed with intersystem drives in mind (yet).

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Hey, if low-tech works, sticking to low tech makes sense.

Yeah, but Battuta accidentally illustrated my point by pointing out the antimatter-based projectile applications. Once you've gotten there, you're more or less deadended. You can't make a fundementally better weapon.  Projectile-based technology is tapped out and would be very difficult to further improve upon.
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Offline -Norbert-

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Not at all. The GTVA pretty much build their newer ships the same way the Shivans did. Massively powerfull beams forward. Lots of cheap fighters. And only few high-class fighters. And that mass of cheap low-performance fighters was slaughtered by the UEF fighters. And it would be the same with Shivan fighters.

And who sais that the UEF weapons can't be improved? Maybe they only contain very, very small amounts of anti-matter and once the containment technologies are improved that amount could be increased a great deal, resulting in damage beyond even the blue beams. Or maybe not. There's not enough data (that I'm aware of anyway) to judge.
Besides it would be sensible to assume that there are different kinds of anti-matter, since there are different kinds of matter. Maybe using other "anti-elements" produces different effects on the target.
And even if the warhead can't be improved, the other parts of the torpedos can be.  To give some ideas: Faster, thougher, faster lock-on, fitted with an onboard computer that flys a zig-zag course to make it less likely the bomb is shot down, reduced size without sacrificing payload (less likely to be shot down and the ability to carry more of them) or maybe even stealth...

And projectile bases weapons can also be improved by increasing projectile speed, size and rate of fire. Or possibly the other way around, reducing the size of the weapon while retaining the damage output, enabling them to fit more of them into a ship.

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They haven't made nearly the same scale of technical innovation the GTVA has in longer period of time then the GTVA did
The GTVA didn't really innovate that much. Beams are copied from the Shivans. Kaysers? Copy from Shivan technology. Balor? Basically a downscaled Kayser and thus another Shivan copy. FLAK? Now those they developed on their own, but so did the UEF, just a different kind of FLAK. Bombs and torpedoes? Just bigger, more advanced versions based on the same principal as the old FS1 era weapons.
The UEF on the other hands build their torpedoes and bombs on another principal and developed railguns - both fighter and capship based - without any Shivan "help".

And I think the UEF would do very well against the Shivans (unless they totally change fighting style from the FS2 era), because the UEF takes the advantages the GTVA has over the Shivans and brings them to a new level. The Shivans have far poorer point defense than the GTVA (except FS2 era destroyers) which makes the UEFs torpedos even more of a threat.
And Shivan ships tend to have "soft" turrets and the beams concentrated forward. That makes them vulnerable to the UEFs strength: disarming turrets from long range. Unless the Shivan beams have a considerbly longer range than the GTVA beams.
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You're forgetting the reason UEF fighters perform so well is because they're designed for all these things at the expense of staying power where the GTVA went the other way to stand off endless waves of Shivan fightercraft.
What do you mean with staying power? And why should the UEF fighters be less capable of destroying massive numbers of Shivan fighters than their GTVA counterparts?

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Meson bombs bro.
Meson bombs.

UEF don't even know what they are as evidenced in The Blade Itself.
Also happens to be one of the better ways to stop Shivans from killing your ass, at least temporarily.

What do you mean with staying power? And why should the UEF fighters be less capable of destroying massive numbers of Shivan fighters than their GTVA counterparts?

Shorter staying power in that they weren't designed for extended periods of operation?
Less fuel/supplies carried onboard so they can't go on as long of tours without resupply (a UEF battlegroup probably wouldn't have lasted the events of AoA cause they don't have logistics ship designs like the Anemoi)
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 02:35:07 pm by Droid803 »
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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
The UEF fighters have lesser endurance than GTVA fighters, like Battuta said they're high maintenance and have low fuel reserves, plus they suffer a higher degree of relative wear and tear compared to their Tev counterparts.  The UEF builds lots of F-35's, and the Tevs crank out MiG's and Sukhois.  Who will fare better in the attrition warfare the Shivans fight?
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
The Generation 1 Threat Exigency Initiative ships on the GTVA side were simply designed to provide cheap, plentiful screen fighters against Shivan bomber attacks. The Kulas is emblematic of that approach, while the Aurora has so many capabilities as a utility ship it's not even funny (I'd love to complete the AI component of the FRED spells system and give Auroras some spells.)

The Generation 2 fighters are much higher-performance and are meant to eventually make up the meet of the next gen GTVA fleet.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Herra: I agree with your point there, although I don't think that it's apparent to the GTVA as of yet (should it be? Perhaps the Ancient monologues were never fully studied?). In their minds, I'd guess that it's a question of "When the Shivans return," rather then "Why do they keep f*cking coming back and how do we motherf*cking stop them?"

It's hard to say what the Ancient Monologues actually were. They could have been recorded pieces of Ancient history from the sources recovered during the Great War, or they could have been exclusively experienced by the player character - Alpha 1 of the Great War.

If the former is right, it's hard to understand why they would not have been extensively studied. On the other hand, if they were exclusively experienced by Alpha 1, GTVA would never have known them since Alpha 1 was stuck in Sol. This is, in my opinion reinforced by Alpha 1's campaign ending monologue which is spoken entirely in the first person.

Lacking this information, it is easy to understand why GTVA would rather prepare for the next Shivan onslaught than try to remove the Shivans' reason to come after humanity again. It's not a logically wrong conclusion, but one borne with insufficient information.

Quote from: NGTM1-R
The Ancients monologue speaks of a specific crime, a specific sin. "Now we know our crime was sin."

It speaks of such sins after their imperialist expansionist tendancies, so it is at best an extremely tortured construction that they were referring to such things. Instead, the closest that would come to an identification of sin is the trepassing.

Subspace is also mentioned in more than one of the monologues, three of them in fact, but imperialism only one.


It is, of course, a possibility that simply usage of subspace will attract the attention of Shivans. It is possible that subspace travel has prolems that are unknown to humans and Vasudans, but Shivans are aware of and try to prevent them the only way they can, or maybe the simplest.

In this interpretation, subspace nodes would be weak points in space-time structure and subspace travel through them would exacerbate the problem when the vortices would poke holes in it even further weakening it. This would further explain why Shivans themselves seem to not be dependant on nodes - possibly they can travel without them.

However, they do use nodes when it is convenient to them.

Or it could be a method to get someone to explode something big (like a Lucifer or a Meson bomb) inside a node in order to collapse it.

This however presents a new problem - if it is subspace travel that attracts Shivans' attention - why don't they simply go and collapse the nodes themselves?

Why the interest in glassing planets (prime example being Vasuda Prime) and the overall destructive nature (exploding a star in a system full of fleeing refugees)?


Of course, like I said earlier it's just possible that Shivans do it for the lulz. In that case, that would be their sole motive, making them truly impossible to negotiate with. However, I sincerely doubt it and think they have some underlying reason for their selection of targets, and it isn't just subspace travel.


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Alpha 1 lays it out. Humanity survived, the Vasudans survived, because they were strong, because they were prepared and capable of fighting for it.

Indeed.

This invokes the question: Could they have survived, had the not been capable of working together to defeat their common enemy?


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And both these ignore the vital point: It doesn't matter whether you're imperialist or not. It matters only that you be curious. The Shivans do not arrive from extradimensional unreachable homes to destroy those who break their rules. They did not for the Ancients and they did not for FS2. They are here, now, and they await the unwary as they awaited Bosch's effort to find them. Even harmless exploration could bring down the wrath of the Shivans upon you. Unless you're posisting that Ubuntu is so insular it will never even explore beyond known space, some day they will meet the Shivans once more. And they will not be ready for it, they will not be able to buy they few days necessary to throw a pile of Meson bombs down the node and render themselves safe again.

I don't see why curiosity alone would cause Shivans to annihilate your species. Unless they indeed pretty much just do it because they can.

Besides, how do you know Shivans don't arrive from extradimensional unreachable homes to destroy those who break the rules? In Blue Planet continuity there is already two confirmed cases of inter-dimensional travel - the 14th Battlegroup to the universe where Lucifer glassed Earth, and Sanctuary coming back to FreeSpace Proper universe (BP continuity, of course). So, given that in Blue Planet continuity interdimensional travel is possible, that sort of makes your argument less solid.

As far as being ready for Shivans goes - UEF and GTVA are pretty much on par on their level of ability to seriously deter Shivans should they desire to annihilate them. GTVA might survive for some time longer (mostly because they are spread wider and could slow Shivans with collapsing nodes) - but then, safety from Shivans by collapsing nodes is questionable at best, knowing Shivans' cited ability to rebuild nodes, and even before that, their appearance in Ross 128, likely through a node undetected to GTA observations.

If Shivans decided to destroy humanity and Vasudans, there would be no stopping them. They would find ways around stopgap measures like destroyed nodes and such.

If they do it for the lulz (or, in your words, just to punish for simple curiosity) all is lost, and I don't believe in the no-win scenario.

Therefore I prefer to think they have a reason for doing what they do, and that's either the Subspace Argument (subspace travel is dangerous and Shivans prevent it, thus saving the universe) or the Rulebreaker Argument (Shivans monitor activities of sentient space-faring species and nullify those that present significant enough threats to other space-faring species).

Maybe not the strongest argument for it, but hey, this is a fictional universe with no confirmed canon solution to the problem of Shivans' motives, so all interpretations of the few vague hints are equally valid as long.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I believe FreeSpace canon supplies a complete explanation of Shivan motives circa FS1, namely that they act to destroy species which are a threat to other species, and to incentivize cooperation between species (thus earning a reprieve.)

As of the end of FS1, that's canonically what the Shivans were: protectors of galactic diversity.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Besides, how do you know Shivans don't arrive from extradimensional unreachable homes to destroy those who break the rules?

Mainly because as I pointed out, the evidence is strongly against it. The Ancients speak of an offensive phase, of attacking a Shivan system and failing to take it and withdrawing. Bosch's recon of the nebula found Shivans already there, and Into The Lion's Den proves that they did not emerge into the nebula fully formed; they came from beyond it, where they have holdings in real space including the only fixed Shivan objects we've ever seen.

If the Shivans can simpy arrive from another dimension then the fact they have always emerged before the leading edge of their opponent's expansion seems both counterproductive to them and unlikely at best.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
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This would further explain why Shivans themselves seem to not be dependant on nodes - possibly they can travel without them.

I forget the exact quote, but somewhere early in the FS2 campaign, Petrarch says in one of the CBs, "We know... [don't remember this part] Shivans are just as dependent on nodes as we are."

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Quote
This would further explain why Shivans themselves seem to not be dependant on nodes - possibly they can travel without them.

I forget the exact quote, but somewhere early in the FS2 campaign, Petrarch says in one of the CBs, "We know... [don't remember this part] Shivans are just as dependent on nodes as we are."

I think it's late in the campaign, actually, and he says that the Shivans make use of unstable or ephemeral nodes.

 
Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
The Shivans, I think, can traverse more unstable nodes, which don't appear on the nodemap because the GTVA doesn't bother documenting nodes they can't use.

This is how the Lucifer continuously outmaneuvered everyone in FS1.
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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I think a more important question is why Sol was left alone during the second Shivan Incursion? If the Shivans can actually go with Sub-Space travel without the use of a node then it stands to reason that the UEF somehow is not on their Agenda.

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I think a more important question is why Sol was left alone during the second Shivan Incursion? If the Shivans can actually go with Sub-Space travel without the use of a node then it stands to reason that the UEF somehow is not on their Agenda.

The Shivans came from the nebula, they never expressed any desire to go further than Capella.
The rest of the GTVA wasn't on their agenda, even.

Sol is just about as special as Wolf 359 or Beta Cyngi in that regard.

Sorry, the Shivans didn't avoid Sol because of the UEF. They avoided most of Terran/Vasudan space for some other reason. Or rather, they were quite fixated on Capella...

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This would further explain why Shivans themselves seem to not be dependant on nodes - possibly they can travel without them.

I forget the exact quote, but somewhere early in the FS2 campaign, Petrarch says in one of the CBs, "We know... [don't remember this part] Shivans are just as dependent on nodes as we are."

I think it's late in the campaign, actually, and he says that the Shivans make use of unstable or ephemeral nodes.

Its when they're discussing the meson bomb plan.
"The shivans may use unstable and uncharted jump nodes, but they're just as dependant on them as we are". (paraphrased, but that's what he says)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2010, 12:39:29 am by Droid803 »
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Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Not at all. The GTVA pretty much build their newer ships the same way the Shivans did. Massively powerfull beams forward.

Do you seriously think the GTVA would be so foolish as to rely only on beams that fire forward? Take a closer look at the weapons mounted on the Raynor, which was originally designed so that at least 50% of its overall firepower can be projected in almost any direction.
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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Yep, but the Chimera and the Bellerophon just don't have a single side beam, and the Titan only have a couple of slash beams. The Raynor is the exception in the new ship designs, along with the new Diomedes. It is made clear in the tech description that the GTVA expect a lot from their adaptation of the Shivans' shock jump tactics.
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Offline Dilmah G

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Yeah, that was as a result of Steele.

I think the GTVA may have to rethink its M.O. should the Shivans arrive again. The design of a ship such as the Deimos was probably the most practical design of the time period. As the GTVA were generally being shock-jumped by the Shivans, a ship such as the Deimos with its beams having a wide arc of fire and killzones to both sides would've been better suited to fend off Shivan jumps.

With their current beam placement, Terran ships would have to break formation immediately and face the threat if they were shock jumped. Assuming their maneuverability is high, this should be fairly attainable, however in practice I wouldn't be surprised if Terran ships weren't able to get a shot off.
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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Those ships are made for aggressive manoeuvres, not defensive ones. The best defence is a good offence. You can't be shock jumped if you have already taken down the enemy ships.

Not that I really think this tactic is really viable, but that's definitely what was in GTVA's mind when they designed those ships. The biggest Shivan threat being juggernauts, shock jumps are the best way to take them out.
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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

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Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

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Offline Flak

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Those Chimera and Bellerophon are meant to do those subspace jump attacks, which they do very well. But otherwise, they do left their broadside and rear defenseless to enemy capital ships (though they do have some AAA beams to swat light fighter assaults). But that is not all, since they also have the Diomedes which is just the exact opposite. It may lack the big guns, but it has the ability to engage enemies on its broadside. Of course we are not forgetting they still have their good old Deimos.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
I think people read too much into the FS monologues. They are there for flare and atmosphere. Not some visions by Alpha 1.

Not to mention we never saw any ability of the shivans to create new nodes.
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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
... what does it have to do in this topic ?
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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

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Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

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bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
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Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie