Author Topic: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)  (Read 242811 times)

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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
If someone was selling a product, but needed 500 quid to fund and produce it, once they have that total, they should produce and release it.   If they get extra,  they should not change that design because greed.   They should say we've got enough,  no more needed.   "A kettle doesn't need afterburners or bluetooth. -  SC is a leaky kettle with 7 power cords and a lid with a 4 tumbler combinarion lock because its fancier than standard"colonel decker 2018
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
I fundamentally disagree with that kind of thinking. You should scope your product to the funding. Someone offers you more money to release a better kettle, you should go for it. Not because of greed (greedy people dont spend the money funding developer salaries), but because it would likely make the kettle better.

Also, Star Citizen is not just a kettle. A high-end MMO game can meaningfully eat $ hundreds of millions for development and then ask for more. We are still in early days of online gaming and there is so much technology and content to develop.
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Online gaming is over 20 years old. 
Just because you disagree doesn't mean we're wrong.
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Offline The E

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
You cannot avoid greatly changing the scope of the game when your funding changes by an order of magnitude during development, from an original of $20 million to $200+ million. Developing a $20 million game when you can do a $200 million one would be utter stupidity, and you know it. "Changing scope is bad" may be a good heuristic but it completely fails for projects such as Star Citizen.

Again, no, wrong. I don't know what you do for a living, but this runs counter to everything you learn about project management in the software industry.

Not only is it possible to avoid changing your project's scope, it is imperative that you do so. Because once you start adding things that haven't been planned for in your original estimates, those estimates are now worth ****. Adding more of what you already planned to have, more varied ships or more planets or more voice acting or whatever, that's easy. You can throw money at more artists for all your budget's worth. Adding something that wasn't really on the table in the first place (like, say, best-in-class FPS gameplay), that's going to be a problem, as Star Citizen has so beautifully demonstrated.

Star Citizen, as originally pitched, could have been done by now (by a competent developer, like Frontier for example). Star Citizen with everything promised after the Kickstarter ran its course could have been done by now.
But instead, you're cheering for yet another minor update to an "alpha" that really does not deserve the term "alpha" (as a reminder: Traditionally, an alpha is supposed to be mostly feature-complete!).

I'm gonna say this again and again, and I dare you to disprove it: We could have had a version of Squadron 42 several years ago, if that had been the focus of development at any point. We could have had a version of the persistant universe several years ago, assuming that that had the exclusive focus. But we have neither, because CIG's management is fundamentally incompetent and has no real oversight from the people financing things (and thus no real pressure to ever actually release anything).
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Offline Col. Fishguts

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
8 years development time for a very complex game, while also establishing a new studio and under significantly changing scope and funding. 2020 is kinda disappointing not unreasonable.

Just as a reminder: Back in 2015 people got banned on the old RSI forums for suggesting that at the current pace of development the game might be delayed into 2018.
 The reason for the ban was "spreading FUD"
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
I'm gonna say this again and again, and I dare you to disprove it: We could have had a version of Squadron 42 several years ago, if that had been the focus of development at any point. We could have had a version of the persistant universe several years ago, assuming that that had the exclusive focus.

We could, but would that really be better? I doubt it. A more complex but delayed game >> simplistic game released on time. Why would you polish and release something you dont consider complete? Just to tick a "release date met" box? It is the end result that counts, not the box.
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Because one is a guaranteed product meeting the original terms of money being effectively begged for at the start, not to mention the convolution which comes from continuous goalpost moves.


What would you do think your bank would do if you changed the terms of a loan after you pissed your business loan money up the wall?
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Offline The E

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
We could, but would that really be better? I doubt it. A more complex but delayed game >> simplistic game released on time. Why would you polish and release something you dont consider complete? Just to tick a "release date met" box? It is the end result that counts, not the box.

I like playing games I paid money for, yes.

Secondly, you say that Star Citizen is or will be more complex. Name a single in-game mechanic that is more complex than anything Frontier have done in Elite so far.
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Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
What would you do think your bank would do if you changed the terms of a loan after you pissed your business loan money up the wall?

If my company is worth $500 million? They would offer me a bigger loan.

You see, it all boils down to whether CIG will ultimately deliver something good. If they do, then I will come back here to gloat about how you blindly wanted a gimped game instead just to stick to a release date. If they dont and the game remains a buggy pre-Alpha forever, then you will be vindicated.

But it is this end result that counts, nothing else.
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Your company holds 500 million of the banks money.   They don't lend on outstanding debts. 

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Personally I would love to see how a game that costed 200mio$ looks like, I mean without the entire redesigns and weird decisions; that would be pretty amazing if it was done by competent people.

 
Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
how many years ago was it that they did all the mocap?
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Offline The E

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Personally I would love to see how a game that costed 200mio$ looks like, I mean without the entire redesigns and weird decisions; that would be pretty amazing if it was done by competent people.

I mean, GTA V exists and has (by some estimates) cost around 260 million USD....
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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Personally I would love to see how a game that costed 200mio$ looks like, I mean without the entire redesigns and weird decisions; that would be pretty amazing if it was done by competent people.

I mean, GTA V exists and has (by some estimates) cost around 260 million USD....

Forgot to say I was referring to SC, as there are few (if any) games with that budget that spark my interest.

 

Offline Spoon

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
https://venturebeat.com/2018/12/20/star-citizen-interview-why-chris-roberts-raised-another-46-million-to-finish-sci-fi-universe/3/

Apparently just raising 211 million through whales just wasn't quite enough to actually make and finish a game.

You cannot avoid greatly changing the scope of the game when your funding changes by an order of magnitude during development, from an original of $20 million to $200+ million. Developing a $20 million game when you can do a $200 million one would be utter stupidity, and you know it. "Changing scope is bad" may be a good heuristic but it completely fails for projects such as Star Citizen.
Star Citizen fails as a project.

You see, it all boils down to whether CIG will ultimately deliver something good. If they do, then I will come back here to gloat about how you blindly wanted a gimped game instead just to stick to a release date. If they dont and the game remains a buggy pre-Alpha forever, then you will be vindicated.

But it is this end result that counts, nothing else.
This tech demo has been a buggy pre-Alpha for 7 years now and there is absolutely no signs that it will leave this state in the next 5 years either. We can't be any more vindicated than we already are. The results have been in for a while now: it's poopoo.

Good lord man, lay off the kool-aid. Literally the only reason you come to HLP for is to defend Starcitizen, you're a cultist through and through.

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« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 07:24:54 am by Spoon »
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
You cannot avoid greatly changing the scope of the game when your funding changes by an order of magnitude during development, from an original of $20 million to $200+ million.

You absolutely can. You make the $20 million game, release it, see how well received it is and then use the rest of the money to make Star Citizen II for everyone who contributed to either project. You also gain lots of good press when the first one comes out instead of persuading the game buying public that this is a cult/scam/train wreck.
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Offline MikeRoz

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
This tech demo has been a buggy pre-Alpha for 7 years now and there is absolutely no signs that it will leave this state in the next 5 years either. We can't be any more vindicated than we already are. The results have been in for a while now: it's poopoo.

Goon math at its finest. The hangar module, the first thing backers had the opportunity to play and Goons had the opportunity make snarky videos of, was released in August of 2013.

I know everyone here is skeptical of CIG's release timelines, as am I. So, let's say that something called Squadron 42 releases in 2021 for the sake of arguments. This means that all your snarky little gifs were of bugs in a game 3-4 years before its release. Does pointing out that a crowdfunded pre-alpha has bugs make you feel special? Do you think that every AAA release was devoid of memetastic bugs 4 years before release?

If CIG put out a $20m game after raising $200m in microtransaction-pledges, you people would still be screaming bloody murder accusing him of putting $180m up his nose. If CIG had refused to release anything to backers until Alpha, so that there weren't memetastic bugs for you people to farm, then you and the backers and your Pope (Derek Smart) would be claiming that every preview was faked and that the money was all going straight up CR's nose.

I don't agree with all the decisions that CIG has made, and I'm not at all convinced that the final product will be a fun game even if CIG delivers something functional. I was raising a stink in another venue all the way back when CIG started doing their first post-campaign concept ship sales. But, this level of hysteria is completely disproportionate for the actual missteps being made. If this weren't a crowdfunded project, or if the development weren't quite so transparent, then I expect that the project would go more the way of Duke Nukem Forever - at first met with immense excitement from the gaming community at large, then slowly becoming a light-hearted, friendly joke about how it's never coming out, until finally it's rushed out by a third party to an ignoble end. There wasn't a whole forum worth of people following 3DRealms around, trying to get them defunded, before that point.

CR's previous DNF-like project, Freelancer, didn't have all the features they'd set out to include, but it was still a decent game in the end. Mistakes were made in the management of that project, but nobody was actively lobbying Digital Anvil's investors to pull out their money so the company would fail and the game would never come out.
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Offline The E

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
I know everyone here is skeptical of CIG's release timelines, as am I. So, let's say that something called Squadron 42 releases in 2021 for the sake of arguments. This means that all your snarky little gifs were of bugs in a game 3-4 years before its release. Does pointing out that a crowdfunded pre-alpha has bugs make you feel special? Do you think that every AAA release was devoid of memetastic bugs 4 years before release?

Since most AAA releases take considerably less time to develop, yes. Many AAA games were absolutely devoid of bugs of any nature 3 to 4 years before release.

Quote
If CIG put out a $20m game after raising $200m in microtransaction-pledges, you people would still be screaming bloody murder accusing him of putting $180m up his nose. If CIG had refused to release anything to backers until Alpha, so that there weren't memetastic bugs for you people to farm, then you and the backers and your Pope (Derek Smart) would be claiming that every preview was faked and that the money was all going straight up CR's nose.

No, see, that's where a developer does something called "communication". If CIG had released anything resembling a finished game (or, more importantly, a finishable game that one could play for some time and have a meaningful experience in) 3 or 4 years ago, we would have a very different discussion.

For example, if that had been the case, we could definitely argue which game was best: Elite? Star Citizen? House of the Dying Sun? COD: Infinite Warfare? Rebel Galaxy Outlaws?
But, alas, that's not the reality we live in, so no matter how you rank these games against each other, Star Citizen will come last by default on account of not being anywhere near release.

Quote
I don't agree with all the decisions that CIG has made, and I'm not at all convinced that the final product will be a fun game even if CIG delivers something functional. I was raising a stink in another venue all the way back when CIG started doing their first post-campaign concept ship sales. But, this level of hysteria is completely disproportionate for the actual missteps being made. If this weren't a crowdfunded project, or if the development weren't quite so transparent, then I expect that the project would go more the way of Duke Nukem Forever - at first met with immense excitement from the gaming community at large, then slowly becoming a light-hearted, friendly joke about how it's never coming out, until finally it's rushed out by a third party to an ignoble end. There wasn't a whole forum worth of people following 3DRealms around, trying to get them defunded, before that point.

There's no whole forum of people following CIG around either.

Quote
CR's previous DNF-like project, Freelancer, didn't have all the features they'd set out to include, but it was still a decent game in the end. Mistakes were made in the management of that project, but nobody was actively lobbying Digital Anvil's investors to pull out their money so the company would fail and the game would never come out.

That's because Microsoft is a company that expects returns on investments and doesn't care who they have to fire in order to get it. Unlike, for example, Star Citizen backers.
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Offline Aesaar

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Squadron 42 depends on LOTS of Persistent Universe technology and that is what makes it so complex. In many ways it will be more like Skyrim or RDR rather than an ordinary linear campaign.

"Squadron 42 is taking a long time because CIG decided to give it a bunch of open-world MMO features that a mission-based single player game doesn't need."

Yeah, that really makes CIG look competent.


CR's previous DNF-like project, Freelancer, didn't have all the features they'd set out to include, but it was still a decent game in the end. Mistakes were made in the management of that project, but nobody was actively lobbying Digital Anvil's investors to pull out their money so the company would fail and the game would never come out.
Freelancer managed to be an ok game because Microsoft bought Digital Anvil and got rid of Chris Roberts after he ran Digital Anvil into the ground trying to make the 'perfect space sim'.

This tech demo has been a buggy pre-Alpha for 7 years now and there is absolutely no signs that it will leave this state in the next 5 years either. We can't be any more vindicated than we already are. The results have been in for a while now: it's poopoo.

Yeah but if CIG never release a game, then people like maslo never have to deal with the fact that the released game is ****, and can just keep moving to goalposts to ensure they never have to come to terms with the fact that the game's never coming out.

Maslo's said time and again that he'd start holding CIG accountable on X date, and when X date comes and goes, he figures out a new way to justify his faith in CIG.  This could persist for another 8 years if CIG want.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 10:32:06 am by Aesaar »

 
Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
You see, it all boils down to whether CIG will ultimately deliver something good. If they do, then I will come back here to gloat about how you blindly wanted a gimped game instead just to stick to a release date. If they dont and the game remains a buggy pre-Alpha forever, then you will be vindicated.

Sounds like you're saying we're already vindicated, and you just don't realize it yet.

The Duke Nukem Forever comparison always feels apt for Star Citizen.  It was a project led by an incompetent auteur who couldn't stop himself penciling more stuff into the design document.  DNF didn't get released until he was kicked off the team, and when it was released, every aspect of it showed its age, from the tech to the writing to the design and mechanics.  If Star Citizen ever has a 1.0 release, I expect that the collective response will at best be a, "Meh," because by the time it happens, half a dozen other games will have done everything (reasonable) that SC seeks to do and will have done it better.

CR's previous DNF-like project, Freelancer, didn't have all the features they'd set out to include, but it was still a decent game in the end. Mistakes were made in the management of that project, but nobody was actively lobbying Digital Anvil's investors to pull out their money so the company would fail and the game would never come out.

Hey, speaking of kicking an auteur off of a project in order to get that project's scope locked down, Freelancer!  Microsoft bought Digital Anvil and reduced Roberts to a consultant on Freelancer's development, so that they could release a game instead of more press releases explaining delay after delay.

It's almost like CR has been incapable of finishing and releasing a game since the 1990's.