Author Topic: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)  (Read 252039 times)

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Offline Spoon

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Remember how they said modding starcitizen would totally be a thing? Which turned out to be yet another lie unfulfilled promise?
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline MikeRoz

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare had a very clearly defined scope and purpose.  Its developers filled that scope and purpose very well and put out a good game that accomplished exactly what it set out to do.

Moddability was not on the feature-list, in the same way that aftermarket parts compatibility isn't on the feature-list for a production model car in favor of something that is both road-worthy and is pleasant to drive.
Battuta didn't merely say that CoD:IW was a good game that fulfilled some limited scope. He said it was "a" Squadron 42, and gave it an unreserved recommendation. Mod support is among the promised features for the SC ecosystem. Thus, it stands to reason that CoD:IW should have mod support for it to be "a" Squadron 42.

While BP has done amazing things with the FS2 engine, surely there comes a point where it would be more effort-effective to mod a more recent game with such an advanced flight model, stable, proven netcode, and engaging and varied space combat mission design, than it would be to continue to extend FS2. There might be a bit of effort to get tooling up and running if the mod support isn't as strong - but again, I'd expect it to be there, as someone very smart told me it is "a" Squadron 42.

In fact, for someone who worked on BP to give it such an unreserved recommendation, I'd expect CoD:IW to meet or exceed the standard BP set for space combat gameplay, but with rock solid netcode/multiplayer and impressive, modern graphics. Perhaps I need to give it a second look.
Rave reviews of my previous posts:
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"Wow, he just wasted about an hour of his life." -MachManX
"There are 5 million things wrong with your post, of which many have already been pointed out..." -blackhole
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare had a very clearly defined scope and purpose.  Its developers filled that scope and purpose very well and put out a good game that accomplished exactly what it set out to do.

Moddability was not on the feature-list, in the same way that aftermarket parts compatibility isn't on the feature-list for a production model car in favor of something that is both road-worthy and is pleasant to drive.
Battuta didn't merely say that CoD:IW was a good game that fulfilled some limited scope. He said it was "a" Squadron 42, and gave it an unreserved recommendation. Mod support is among the promised features for the SC ecosystem. Thus, it stands to reason that CoD:IW should have mod support for it to be "a" Squadron 42.

While BP has done amazing things with the FS2 engine, surely there comes a point where it would be more effort-effective to mod a more recent game with such an advanced flight model, stable, proven netcode, and engaging and varied space combat mission design, than it would be to continue to extend FS2. There might be a bit of effort to get tooling up and running if the mod support isn't as strong - but again, I'd expect it to be there, as someone very smart told me it is "a" Squadron 42.

In fact, for someone who worked on BP to give it such an unreserved recommendation, I'd expect CoD:IW to meet or exceed the standard BP set for space combat gameplay, but with rock solid netcode/multiplayer and impressive, modern graphics. Perhaps I need to give it a second look.

Squadron 42 was pitched as a game of strictly limited scope, and the Kickstarter was formatted with that explicit promise.  Moddability was not, incidentally, a part of that explicit promise, it is yet another unnecessary feature in a buggy alpha infamous for unnecessary features.  If you've been reading the past three pages, the assertion here is that if Chris Roberts had bothered following the initial format and kept the game of strictly limited scope, we might be playing Squadron 42 and describing it as a good game. 

We are not, because Squadron 42 doesn't exist, is unlikely to ever exist as a playable game, and is less likely to exist as a good game.

Before continuing down this line of discussion, you should probably go back and take a look at what Squadron 42 was supposed to be!  Based on your post, what you think it was supposed to be bears little resemblance to the initial premise.

 

Offline HLD_Prophecy

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
'kay now let's not get testy with each other.

 

Offline MikeRoz

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare had a very clearly defined scope and purpose.  Its developers filled that scope and purpose very well and put out a good game that accomplished exactly what it set out to do.

Moddability was not on the feature-list, in the same way that aftermarket parts compatibility isn't on the feature-list for a production model car in favor of something that is both road-worthy and is pleasant to drive.
Battuta didn't merely say that CoD:IW was a good game that fulfilled some limited scope. He said it was "a" Squadron 42, and gave it an unreserved recommendation. Mod support is among the promised features for the SC ecosystem. Thus, it stands to reason that CoD:IW should have mod support for it to be "a" Squadron 42.

While BP has done amazing things with the FS2 engine, surely there comes a point where it would be more effort-effective to mod a more recent game with such an advanced flight model, stable, proven netcode, and engaging and varied space combat mission design, than it would be to continue to extend FS2. There might be a bit of effort to get tooling up and running if the mod support isn't as strong - but again, I'd expect it to be there, as someone very smart told me it is "a" Squadron 42.

In fact, for someone who worked on BP to give it such an unreserved recommendation, I'd expect CoD:IW to meet or exceed the standard BP set for space combat gameplay, but with rock solid netcode/multiplayer and impressive, modern graphics. Perhaps I need to give it a second look.

Squadron 42 was pitched as a game of strictly limited scope, and the Kickstarter was formatted with that explicit promise.  Moddability was not, incidentally, a part of that explicit promise, it is yet another unnecessary feature in a buggy alpha infamous for unnecessary features.  If you've been reading the past three pages, the assertion here is that if Chris Roberts had bothered following the initial format and kept the game of strictly limited scope, we might be playing Squadron 42 and describing it as a good game. 

We are not, because Squadron 42 doesn't exist, is unlikely to ever exist as a playable game, and is less likely to exist as a good game.

Before continuing down this line of discussion, you should probably go back and take a look at what Squadron 42 was supposed to be!  Based on your post, what you think it was supposed to be bears little resemblance to the initial premise.
Do you think I didn't double-check that before I made my post? I may be a bit of a dullard in comparison with our esteemed Batutta, but I did do my homework.





I admit that it's possible that, in the alternate world where SC was made exactly as described in this pitch and without a single additional feature, that there'd be something blocking the mod tools from working on the single player portion and restricting it to just the multiplayer portion - but this seems unlikely to me. Certainly not a barrier the community would have trouble surmounting if it did exist, given what they've already accomplished with things like machinima.

I'm also amused that we've now had a couple members claim that mod tools constitute a superfluous feature. This community would not exist had :v: felt the same way. Or, if they are unimportant - why is this community not moving on to CoD:IW, again?
Rave reviews of my previous posts:
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"Wow, he just wasted about an hour of his life." -MachManX
"There are 5 million things wrong with your post, of which many have already been pointed out..." -blackhole
"Grrr. Someone please monkey mike...He's causing more problems than he's solving" -terran_emperor
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
“I want to go on the internet and be aggressively disingenuous rather than just stating my opinion” is certainly a choice

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Like I don’t know how many words and how much passive-aggressive smarm you just expended to say “Does Infinite Warfare have mod support?”

 

Offline MikeRoz

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Like I don’t know how many words and how much passive-aggressive smarm you just expended to say “Does Infinite Warfare have mod support?”
I must be expressing myself very poorly if I am being misunderstood by someone with your unquestioned intelligence and reading comprehension skills. Please, let me again attempt to ask my question again, directly:

If CoD:IW has all the features of "a" Squadron 42, even with its initial promised feature list and none of the additional features that have been promised in the years since, why is this community, yourself included, not using it as a starting point rather than FS2? Even if SC's mod support is the one bullet point missing from CoD:IW's feature set (which must otherwise be a superset of SQ42's), surely the effort involved in making mod tools would be worth it to move to a modern space sim platform that brings all those features with it?
Rave reviews of my previous posts:
"Wow.  Just wow.  Well, just about the whole post is devoid of reasonable technical merit and accuracy." -Enki
"Wow, he just wasted about an hour of his life." -MachManX
"There are 5 million things wrong with your post, of which many have already been pointed out..." -blackhole
"Grrr. Someone please monkey mike...He's causing more problems than he's solving" -terran_emperor
"You're not very bright, are you." - General Battuta

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
:rolleyes:
Searching for one whole word oh boy you sure showed me.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
i must be expressing myself very poorly if I am being misunderstood by someone with your unquestioned intelligence and reading comprehension skills. Please, let me again attempt to ask my question again, directly:

Why are you trying to be unpleasant to talk to? I’d happily discuss this but this doesn’t read like an attempt at good faith conversation.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Seriously Mike, either quit the ridiculous passive-aggressiveness or don't bother continuing to post in this topic.

 

Offline MikeRoz

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
There is no reason to take those who think SC is a scam seriously because they are an irrelevant small minority that will disappear completely once the game is out and remotely good. They are not a factor.
Thank you, I needed a good hearty laugh today.

Seriously though, look at the S42 roadmap Reddit thread.  Some "small minority."

:rolleyes:
Searching for one whole word oh boy you sure showed me.
You implied I'd find a majority of people in that thread discussing how SC is a scam. The word scam doesn't appear once in the thread, at least at the default comment display depth. I saw some people reacting with skepticism on their ability to deliver the promised feature set or meet promised deadlines, but nobody discussing whether the entire project was a scam. Would you be so kind as to point these comments out? Or are you implying that you believe or that you believe Maslo believes that missing a deadline or allowing a feature to slip off the list means that "SC is a scam"?

If it was so good, why aren't you modding it instead of FS2?

You're not very bright, are you.


i must be expressing myself very poorly if I am being misunderstood by someone with your unquestioned intelligence and reading comprehension skills. Please, let me again attempt to ask my question again, directly:

Why are you trying to be unpleasant to talk to? I’d happily discuss this but this doesn’t read like an attempt at good faith conversation.
I'm merely reminding the you and the audience that you're smarter than me so that you don't ever feel the need to remind me again yourself.
Rave reviews of my previous posts:
"Wow.  Just wow.  Well, just about the whole post is devoid of reasonable technical merit and accuracy." -Enki
"Wow, he just wasted about an hour of his life." -MachManX
"There are 5 million things wrong with your post, of which many have already been pointed out..." -blackhole
"Grrr. Someone please monkey mike...He's causing more problems than he's solving" -terran_emperor
"You're not very bright, are you." - General Battuta

  

Offline karajorma

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
[Moderator hat on]If this name-calling doesn't stop immediately, there will be consequences.


If this weren't a crowdfunded project, or if the development weren't quite so transparent, then I expect that the project would go more the way of Duke Nukem Forever - at first met with immense excitement from the gaming community at large, then slowly becoming a light-hearted, friendly joke about how it's never coming out, until finally it's rushed out by a third party to an ignoble end. There wasn't a whole forum worth of people following 3DRealms around, trying to get them defunded, before that point.

But it IS a crowdfunded project. If computer game publishers back a stinker like DNF, that's what computer game publishers are for. They have the money for it. But when a company's entire strategy revolves around tricking people into spending large amounts of money on something they'll probably never get, then yes, people should speak out about it.

Or do you also intend to also go around slagging off Gamblers Anonymous for being a forum full of people trying to get casinos defunded? The simple fact is that CIG's entire business model is based on getting people to spend hundreds if not thousands on their game. It's a micromacrotransaction model for a game that doesn't even exist! With all of the nasty psychological tricks that microtransaction models use to persuade whales to part with large amounts (stolen directly from the gambling industry). Do you really think this is something that people should allow to pass without comment?
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Mike you seem to be confusing "post-release longevity" with "quality".  I still fire up and play Infinite Warfare from time to time; the fact that there aren't mods hasn't changed the quality of the game itself.

Which is why this:
If CoD:IW has all the features of "a" Squadron 42, even with its initial promised feature list and none of the additional features that have been promised in the years since, why is this community, yourself included, not using it as a starting point rather than FS2?

Gets you responses like this:
You're not very bright, are you.

It's like saying "if diamonds are so valuable, why aren't we using those as currency instead of coins?", being smug about it, and then getting mad when people say that's dumb.

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
He said it was "a" Squadron 42, and gave it an unreserved recommendation. Mod support is among the promised features for the SC ecosystem. Thus, it stands to reason that CoD:IW should have mod support for it to be "a" Squadron 42.

Drop-in/drop-out coop was also one of the promised features of SQ42.  It was also far more talked about than modding was.  You know, before it got unceremoniously canned.  CIG have been blatantly lying about SC and SQ42 for years.


Quote
In fact, for someone who worked on BP to give it such an unreserved recommendation, I'd expect CoD:IW to meet or exceed the standard BP set for space combat gameplay, but with rock solid netcode/multiplayer and impressive, modern graphics. Perhaps I need to give it a second look.
Right, because "this game is good, play it" totally means "this is one of the best games ever".

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
Yeah, I don't see the point in asking why I'm not modding some other game, or all the dings on Blue Planet. I know how to mod FreeSpace, and it has twenty years of open-source developer tools. Plus it's a universe I really care about and a story I want to continue.

CoD IW is a AAA packaged product I really enjoyed, with full "space legs" and seamless transitions between spaceflight, ground battle, and your home ship while playing through a linear, mission-based campaign with excellent gameplay and a solid story (Kit Harrington aside). It doesn't have any mod tools, but on the other hand, it came out two years ago and you can play it right now.

If that doesn't interest you, cool! But it does everything I would've wanted from a notional Squadron 42. It is also in a lot of ways better-designed than BP (because it benefits from a huge budget and really tight, intuitive controls).

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
And of course the snappy quip comeback is, if Squadron 42's so good, why aren't you playing it?

 

Offline MikeRoz

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
[Moderator hat on]If this name-calling doesn't stop immediately, there will be consequences.


If this weren't a crowdfunded project, or if the development weren't quite so transparent, then I expect that the project would go more the way of Duke Nukem Forever - at first met with immense excitement from the gaming community at large, then slowly becoming a light-hearted, friendly joke about how it's never coming out, until finally it's rushed out by a third party to an ignoble end. There wasn't a whole forum worth of people following 3DRealms around, trying to get them defunded, before that point.

But it IS a crowdfunded project. If computer game publishers back a stinker like DNF, that's what computer game publishers are for. They have the money for it. But when a company's entire strategy revolves around tricking people into spending large amounts of money on something they'll probably never get, then yes, people should speak out about it.

Or do you also intend to also go around slagging off Gamblers Anonymous for being a forum full of people trying to get casinos defunded? The simple fact is that CIG's entire business model is based on getting people to spend hundreds if not thousands on their game. It's a micromacrotransaction model for a game that doesn't even exist! With all of the nasty psychological tricks that microtransaction models use to persuade whales to part with large amounts (stolen directly from the gambling industry). Do you really think this is something that people should allow to pass without comment?
That's a good point. Allow me to clarify what I meant by attempting to defund them.

I find the efforts of certain people to get backers to request refunds for pledges from 5-6 years ago incredibly distasteful. I think this is bad from a moral standpoint, as your pledge is neither a purchase nor an investment, but more like a donation. If there was evidence of malfeasance, like that guy who used a Kickstarter for a board game to cover his moving expenses, then that's a case where a refund is entirely appropriate. But it seems like, in SC's case, the majority of funds are going to internal and external developers to make a game. Some projects fail, despite the best efforts of everyone involved, and most people accept this.

I also find it bad from a practical standpoint, because the money from Kickstarter pledges from 2012 has long since been spent, and by requesting a refund now you would essentially be diverting funds from new pledges - likely whales - into your own pocket. In a perfect world, they're not donating to cover your refund, they're donating because they want the game made.

To speak to your analogy, this would be like someone going into a GA meeting, declaring that casinos are a scam, handing out pitchforks, and marching them to casinos to demand their already-gambled money back. The casinos are rightly going to laugh them out the door.

However, if you're instead talking about discouraging further funding until they have a game released, I can't say I disagree with that at all, and I've been personally practicing that myself for years. I do think that the project would have been better off without the constant stream of funds derived from a continuous stream of ship concepts being developed for sale.

Mike you seem to be confusing "post-release longevity" with "quality".  I still fire up and play Infinite Warfare from time to time; the fact that there aren't mods hasn't changed the quality of the game itself.

Which is why this:
If CoD:IW has all the features of "a" Squadron 42, even with its initial promised feature list and none of the additional features that have been promised in the years since, why is this community, yourself included, not using it as a starting point rather than FS2?

Gets you responses like this:
You're not very bright, are you.

It's like saying "if diamonds are so valuable, why aren't we using those as currency instead of coins?", being smug about it, and then getting mad when people say that's dumb.
I'm not hung up on whether CoD:IW supports mods or not. I even gave away having to develop mod tools ourselves as a freebie. I'm asking why we wouldn't be willing to shoulder our burden ourselves, if CoD:IW really is the modern FS2 or Wing Commander. That's what SQ42 was pitched as. If CoD:IW really delivers on that promise, why isn't modding CoD:IW a road any of us have ever considered travelling?

Yeah, I don't see the point in asking why I'm not modding some other game, or all the dings on Blue Planet. I know how to mod FreeSpace, and it has twenty years of open-source developer tools. Plus it's a universe I really care about and a story I want to continue.

CoD IW is a AAA packaged product I really enjoyed, with full "space legs" and seamless transitions between spaceflight, ground battle, and your home ship while playing through a linear, mission-based campaign with excellent gameplay and a solid story (Kit Harrington aside). It doesn't have any mod tools, but on the other hand, it came out two years ago and you can play it right now.

If that doesn't interest you, cool! But it does everything I would've wanted from a notional Squadron 42. It is also in a lot of ways better-designed than BP (because it benefits from a huge budget and really tight, intuitive controls).
You didn't find the flight model and space combat mission design incredibly simplistic compared to even original, unmodded FS2?

And of course the snappy quip comeback is, if Squadron 42's so good, why aren't you playing it?
Please, please, please point out where I've said SQ42 is good.

You are the one who asserted that CoD:IW has delivered on everything SQ42 promised. That's the assertion I'm challenging. I have not asserted anywhere (at least in the past year or two) that SC/SQ42 is/will be fun to play in either its current or eventual final form. People on this board seem to assume that there are only two positions one can have on SC: blind believer forking over $1000s annually, or incredibly toxic meme-slinger and catchphrase-repeater. If you're assuming that I'm one of the former because I'm not one of the latter, that's on you, not me.
Rave reviews of my previous posts:
"Wow.  Just wow.  Well, just about the whole post is devoid of reasonable technical merit and accuracy." -Enki
"Wow, he just wasted about an hour of his life." -MachManX
"There are 5 million things wrong with your post, of which many have already been pointed out..." -blackhole
"Grrr. Someone please monkey mike...He's causing more problems than he's solving" -terran_emperor
"You're not very bright, are you." - General Battuta

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
You didn't find the flight model and space combat mission design incredibly simplistic compared to even original, unmodded FS2?

It's got better turret/subsystem interaction than core FS2, and the ability to swap between 'plane' and 'VTOL' flight modes gets rid of the worst part of FS2's fighter/capship dynamic - the long, boring resets where you get distance to make your next run. And capships defend themselves much more actively than in (say) FS1. The fighter-on-fighter dynamic is pretty weak, the missions are fairly narrow in scope, and it's short on challenge and content, but as a AAA for-the-masses space shooter goes it's really good.

I don't care about weird nuances of who believes what about which product, I just wanna say IW is a good-ass game and you can play it right now if you're looking for an expensive, cinematic, space-legs story.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Wing Commander 6: The Undiscovered Release Date (Star Citizen Thread)
[Moderator hat on]If this name-calling doesn't stop immediately, there will be consequences.


If this weren't a crowdfunded project, or if the development weren't quite so transparent, then I expect that the project would go more the way of Duke Nukem Forever - at first met with immense excitement from the gaming community at large, then slowly becoming a light-hearted, friendly joke about how it's never coming out, until finally it's rushed out by a third party to an ignoble end. There wasn't a whole forum worth of people following 3DRealms around, trying to get them defunded, before that point.

But it IS a crowdfunded project. If computer game publishers back a stinker like DNF, that's what computer game publishers are for. They have the money for it. But when a company's entire strategy revolves around tricking people into spending large amounts of money on something they'll probably never get, then yes, people should speak out about it.

Or do you also intend to also go around slagging off Gamblers Anonymous for being a forum full of people trying to get casinos defunded? The simple fact is that CIG's entire business model is based on getting people to spend hundreds if not thousands on their game. It's a micromacrotransaction model for a game that doesn't even exist! With all of the nasty psychological tricks that microtransaction models use to persuade whales to part with large amounts (stolen directly from the gambling industry). Do you really think this is something that people should allow to pass without comment?
That's a good point. Allow me to clarify what I meant by attempting to defund them.

I find the efforts of certain people to get backers to request refunds for pledges from 5-6 years ago incredibly distasteful. I think this is bad from a moral standpoint, as your pledge is neither a purchase nor an investment, but more like a donation.

Let me stop you right there. This is a lie. I can totally see why CIG would like to spin that lie that way but donations to the Kickstarter were the exchange of money for goods.

Quote
Pledge US$ 30 or more

A digital copy of the finished game for your PC

Estimated delivery Nov 2014

This is a feature of every donation above $30 and therefore means that anyone who donated above $30 is entitled to their money back as CIG has not delivered the goods they were paid for four years after the delivery date they set on the kickstarter. People can claim the scope of the project changed all they like but this was not the deal that people made when they paid money.

Quote
But it seems like, in SC's case, the majority of funds are going to internal and external developers to make a game. Some projects fail, despite the best efforts of everyone involved, and most people accept this.

CIG have never attempted to make the game they promised. Almost immediately after the kickstarter CIG started making a different game, completely different in scope from what was pitched. Therefore it's not a valid argument that some projects fail. This is not a case of CIG attempting to make the game they pitched and failing, they were making a completely different game. So sorry, but it's perfectly acceptable for people who kickstarted the project to ask for their money back. If there is a moral failure here, it is on the part of CIG. They pitched one game and then started making a different one with the money.

Quote
I also find it bad from a practical standpoint, because the money from Kickstarter pledges from 2012 has long since been spent, and by requesting a refund now you would essentially be diverting funds from new pledges - likely whales - into your own pocket. In a perfect world, they're not donating to cover your refund, they're donating because they want the game made.

I can use that same logic to deny every single refund for every single product. And I'm sorry but it's morally bankrupt. If you ask someone for money in return for goods or services, you must provide those goods or services. If you can't, you must return the money. You can't simply say "but it means that other people have to pay you back!"

Quote
To speak to your analogy, this would be like someone going into a GA meeting, declaring that casinos are a scam, handing out pitchforks, and marching them to casinos to demand their already-gambled money back. The casinos are rightly going to laugh them out the door.

No it isn't. Those people spent money and received a service in return. They had a chance to win. Now suppose instead that the casino had rigged those machines to pay out much less than they said they did. Wouldn't the gamblers be entitled to some money back? Hell, let's take malfeasance out of the equation. Suppose those machines had a design flaw which meant they paid out less, wouldn't the people who gambled on them be entitled to some or all of their money back?

CIG took money claiming that they'd have a product released four years ago. Whether that wasn't true because of poor management or deliberate deception is irrelevant. They have failed to deliver the product they promised four years ago. It is completely anti-consumer to claim that they should be allowed to get away with it.
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